[wmack3]

I decided if I want a real power upgrade I am going to get a Supercharger (got the idea from someone on here) for my 2011 R/T. I have found two kinds, a Centrifugal Style Kit (ProCharger) and Roots Style Kit (Edelbrock) they both seem to show similar specs. Is there an advantage to either? I have a 6 SP Manual. Thanks in advance.

 

[ply67cuda]

Here is a great post a fellow forum member did on this. Take a look.

http://www.challengerforumz.com/showthread.php?t=99915

Personally, I have a Kenne Bell. In addition to thethese 3, Magnassun, and Whipple offer S/Cs for our cars.

There is a sub-forum called forced induction you might also want to check out.

http://www.challengerforumz.com/forumdisplay.php?f=154

 

[Tylus]

Roots style (sits on motor and often replaces intake) makes full boost typically at 1000 rpm and maintains that boost all the way to redline

Centri style (bolts to front of motor like alternator) is essentially a turbo. It makes no boost at idle and depending on your blow-off valve, the boost gradually ramps up. So low boost at low rpm, higher boost at higher rpm's.


They both have advantages.

Centri units are easier on the motor stress wise. But you end up driving at much higher RPMs to get more HP

Roots units make boost consistent across the power band. It's all or nothing. Also can be harder on the motor based on the boost bypass valve shutting and putting full boost pressure when instant before it wasn't seeing that boost


So you have to ask yourself. Self, how do I drive? Am I always wringing the RPMs out of the motor? Or do I prefer lower rpm but gobs of power?

I personally don't like high rpm runs. By the time you get to 6,000 rpm, it's essentially time to shut her down. So a roots blower is better for me because I can play at lower RPM. However, they are harder to install and again, can be slightly harder on motor.

If you like to hear that bad mofo sing, a centri blower is likely a better proposition. Easier on motor, better drive ability, and very easy to install.


Hope that helps some. I will always take a roots style over the centri units. But that's my driving style. However, price being right, I'd be a happy camper with a Centri.

 

[cdahl383]

The Procharger is going to be a lot less than that Edelbrock. Magnacharger makes a nice roots style for much less than the Edelbrock. RichR on here just recently did a Procharger install on his R/T, think it's a 2011 as well. He seems pretty happy with his.

I'd opt for the one that's easier on the motor if you're not going to forge the bottom end. If you stick to low boost like 6-8 lbs though I think either one would be alright. There are quite a few guys on here running Magnachargers for a while with no issues. I think the Prochargers are pretty sweet though.

My cousin has a Vortech on his Mustang running 12lbs of boost and that car is a beast. Runs 11.0 on slicks and gets 22mpg on the highway and still has A/C. He's had that on his car for 15 years now, no issues to date.

 

[williams rt]

Ok let's correct a few things first, positive displacement superchargers like magnachargers, edelbrocks, kenne bells do not make full boost at 1000 rpms lol that is about idle.
They do make boost sooner, it is still progressive with rpm just quicker to reach full boost. Some people with bad tunes will report a light switch effect of boost snapping on at about 3000 rpms.
The centri units like pro charger and vortech the boost comes on later about 3000 rpms and the transition to full boost is progressive with the rpm rise too.
The advantage to one over another depends on what you want to do to your car? If you want to race the car the centri can perform as well or better than the pd blower.depending how the car is set up. If you want to keep it mostly street driven the centri will have better manners with driving more like stock until you get on it hard. The PD will give you that extra power with less pedal.
As far as being easier on the engine one does not have a advantage over another with a good tune, boost is boost doesn't matter where it comes from.
Having a 6 speed car you can control the boost on a pd blower driving around town better than a guy with a automatic, by shifting around the boost coming on hard. Steadily apply the gas and shift you will not see hard boost, stab the gas the boost will come on hard. With a stick car I prefer a pd blower, plus they look great!

 

[wmack3]

Thanks guys that really helps.

 

[williams rt]

By the way hemi tuner performance has a great buy on Whipple superchargers right now. 8k installed with tune. He is in Ny but he will sell it without install too.

 

[mrhemihead]

^^^Valid points from everyone^^^
From personal experience with a manual transmission car driven primarily on the street I would not repeat installing a Kenni Bell S/C or anything similar. It was a challenge to launch and stay straight.
If you play on the street this S/C can get you in trouble unexpectedly...traction is unpredictable on public roads.
If I take this path again it would be a centrifugal S/C for certain.

 

[ply67cuda]

Phil (R/Twilliams) has it right on. (all of his points actually!) The street driving characteristics of a PD-boosted 6-speed are easier to learn and manage than an auto. I have a recently installed KB and I have about a 1000 miles under my belt driving it. As I haven't been to the track yet I cant comment on the hard launch characteristics so Mrhemihead may have a point there. In fact for folks who want to track their car a lot, any manual is inherently harder to be consistent with (and for most folks - as fast) as compared to an auto tranny regardless of S/C or not. But I can easily imagine how the S/Cs on a stick at the track would be very hard to master.

However, I can say my experience on the street is not the same as Mrhemihead's. I have a 6-speed and as I learn the throttle positions for each gear as you transition from vacuum to boost I am finding it pretty straight forward to figure out how much throttle it takes to break the rear end free as well as how much it takes to change the driving experiences (smoothness) with gentler levels of boost and as mentioned - adjusting the shift points accordingly is very easy.

I can see if a driver is binary (i.e., throttle off or on, with no in between) how it would be hard to control. But if you are that unskilled (or maybe a better word is undisciplined) then any S/C can get you in trouble (regardless of manual or auto) and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who is a binary driver. It doesn't take an S/C to get you into trouble if your driver habits aren't tempered by common sense and judgment (btw, just to be clear, I am not commenting on any specific person's driving on this thread nor is there any hidden intent to do so). We all see the stories of idiots wrapping their cars around trees and poles (the cheap mustang crowd comes to mind) b/c they don't know how to handle a performance car.

I think the proposition is much like anything else in life - you don't jump straight from any novice rank into an elite category without taking the time to learn and master and CONTROL what you have, and then move up to the next step. You don't jump into a top fuel dragster straight from a family car. The lack of experience and expertise will kill you. Instead you take a steady progression through increasingly higher performance cars, learning and improving along the way until you get to the level you want.

For those willing to learn and SAFELY experiment, you will really enjoy learning how to control some serious HP provided by S/Cs - which to my way of thinking is even more satisfying than simply punching it without any ability to control it and hope you don't kill yourself or anyone else in the process just for the adrenalize buzz.

I recognize these thoughts are probably a little broader than the scope of what was intended, but I think these comments have brought up some interesting perspectives and I am not shy about tossing my 2 cents into the ring.

btw - I also agree with Carl - if you are boosting to 6 pounds or less on the 5.7 motors you don't need to forge your bottom end. Up it to 8 and you are on the edge of safety - you take your chances and longevity requires a much more careful tune. Above that you are at high risk of blowing a motor without a bottom end forge.

I don't have as much knowledge on what is safe for 6.1 and 6.4 motors - I seem to recall there where issues with the ring lands on the pistons that made them more susceptible to engine failure on boosted applications. Might be worth a comment or two from those more intimate with what is cool or not on those motors.

Lets keep the fracas going! Who's next to weigh in? - lol

 

[williams rt]

Phil (R/Twilliams) has it right on. (all of his points actually!)

However, I can say my experience on the street is not the same as Mrhemihead's. I have a 6-speed and as I learn the throttle positions for each gear as you transition from vacuum to boost

Most Keene bells transition to boost terrible, they have very bad tunes. This makes them hard to drive on the street, Mr norms made a boost box to help this. Most tuners just can't or won't spend the time to fix this. But learning how to drive a boosted car line you said can help it a lot too.

 

[ply67cuda]

Most Keene bells transition to boost terrible, they have very bad tunes. This makes them hard to drive on the street, Mr norms made a boost box to help this. Most tuners just can't or won't spend the time to fix this. But learning how to drive a boosted car line you said can help it a lot too.

I will say this - in my application, Bischoff Racing designed the cam to work specifically with the KB and the boost level we planned. - especially the transition characteristics In addition, Josh and AJ have spent the better part of 3 days dialing this tune in. So that helps a ton. With a lousy tune, I would expect the KB and the Whipple to be not a lot of fun...

 

[wmack3]

I think I am going with the ProCharger! I like the idea of building HP since I like to drive at higher RPM. I do take my Chally to a track but it is a Road Course. Thanks again for all the info.

 

[pokeyl]

I have no time with roots systems but 34K street miles with a Rotrex system. It has had no maintenance issues, provides solid gains and has been fun. It is my DD, 52 miles to work One-Way.

 

[mrhemihead]

Most Keene bells transition to boost terrible, they have very bad tunes. This makes them hard to drive on the street, Mr norms made a boost box to help this. Most tuners just can't or won't spend the time to fix this. But learning how to drive a boosted car line you said can help it a lot too.

My experience is with the Opcon Autorotor which looks and is designed like a Kenny Bell...obviously a different mfg. Installed on a 2001 Viper it used a piggy back controller that was engineered for Rowe Racing, who sold the system as a DIY package.

The V10 has a boat load of torque at the low end and this system did not help matters, full boost was around 2000rpm. The boost was very low, 2 psi would add 100hp to a stock engine.

It used smart cards to alter the tune on the fly. Programmed cards were available for a variety of octanes and driving conditions. Local tuners were unfamiliar with the system so I purchased the software and street tuned it myself. When satisfied with the tune I had it dyno tested...600 rhp.

I found throttle response to be overly sensitive. Get on it when the street conditions were not optimal and it would go sideways quickly.Traction control was not available on a 2001 Viper.

Fast forward to today's hardware. Admittedly I know nothing of the S/C systems available today but as mentioned above driving skills are still a must.

How many DIYers are going to be patient and learn to drive a DIY S/C ed car without endangering themselves or the public? There were many stories of cars being wrecked by joy riding lot boys at dealerships and unsuspecting owners who pushed the car to the limits at the wrong time.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Hellcat. When an unskilled driver mashes the pedal at the wrong time will the traction control system save the day.

I hope.:doh:

 

[ply67cuda]

My experience is with the Opcon Autorotor which looks and is designed like a Kenny Bell...obviously a different mfg. Installed on a 2001 Viper it used a piggy back controller that was engineered for Rowe Racing, who sold the system as a DIY package.

The V10 has a boat load of torque at the low end and this system did not help matters, full boost was around 2000rpm. The boost was very low, 2 psi would add 100hp to a stock engine.

It used smart cards to alter the tune on the fly. Programmed cards were available for a variety of octanes and driving conditions. Local tuners were unfamiliar with the system so I purchased the software and street tuned it myself. When satisfied with the tune I had it dyno tested...600 rhp.

I found throttle response to be overly sensitive. Get on it when the street conditions were not optimal and it would go sideways quickly.Traction control was not available on a 2001 Viper.

Fast forward to today's hardware. Admittedly I know nothing of the S/C systems available today but as mentioned above driving skills are still a must.

How many DIYers are going to be patient and learn to drive a DIY S/C ed car without endangering themselves or the public? There were many stories of cars being wrecked by joy riding lot boys at dealerships and unsuspecting owners who pushed the car to the limits at the wrong time.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Hellcat. When an unskilled driver mashes the pedal at the wrong time will the traction control system save the day.

I hope.:doh:

Wow - pretty interesting set-up you had - and on a Viper no less. Interesting that you had tire breakaway issues since the tires on those cars are huge compared to Challenger skins. But its a totally different car with different HP and TQ curves so I cant speak to that application like you can - do you still have it?

Agree totally on the whole rookie driver thing. On the Hellcat topic - don't know if you've seen or heard about it, but the first one sold to Joe Public has already been wrecked - guy in Colorado had it less than an hour and wrecked it pretty bad into a tree.

Someone else on the forum did a whole thread on it - take a look and draw your own conclusions....

http://www.challengerforumz.com/showthread.php?t=107682

 

[Tylus]

Ok let's correct a few things first, positive displacement superchargers like magnachargers, edelbrocks, kenne bells do not make full boost at 1000 rpms lol that is about idle.
They do make boost sooner, it is still progressive with rpm just quicker to reach full boost. Some people with bad tunes will report a light switch effect of boost snapping on at about 3000 rpms.

Ok, so they arent making full boost. still 3-4 psi isn't anything to sneeze at at idle vs about zero with a Centri unit

Great discussion about tuning. The factory tuning in my Roushcharger was horrific. The boost bypass shut at 80% throttle and slapped motor with 6 PSI of boost. That was on a 6500 lbs truck. Almost always made it slide sideways. Very uncontrollable

I had a custom tune done up that started boosting at 20%, but it was modulated. Bypass started shutting/throttling. Bypass would fully shut at 50% throttle. Much better street manners after that

With the 3.92 gears in these things, a Centri probably is pretty fun. To be brutally honest the 375 HP the R/T has is enough. It makes 1st and 2nd useless from a hard launch. Hopefully good wide tires help cure that. Centri would let you roll into the boost and hopefully higher trap speeds to offset slower launch

 

[williams rt]

Ok, so they arent making full boost. still 3-4 psi isn't anything to sneeze at at idle vs about zero with a Centri unit

Great discussion about tuning. The factory tuning in my Roushcharger was horrific. The boost bypass shut at 80% throttle and slapped motor with 6 PSI of boost. That was on a 6500 lbs truck. Almost always made it slide sideways. Very uncontrollable

I had a custom tune done up that started boosting at 20%, but it was modulated. Bypass started shutting/throttling. Bypass would fully shut at 50% throttle. Much better street manners after that

With the 3.92 gears in these things, a Centri probably is pretty fun. To be brutally honest the 375 HP the R/T has is enough. It makes 1st and 2nd useless from a hard launch. Hopefully good wide tires help cure that. Centri would let you roll into the boost and hopefully higher trap speeds to offset slower launch

They don't make 3-4 at idle either they make nothing they are in bypass and slowly build boost unless you stab the gas pedal, a poor tune will usually result in sudden boost at about 3000 rpms. But I do agree I think the RT in stock form is all ready too much for a daily driver lol like you said 1st and 2nd are useless and where the hell do you use 6th gear on the salt flats?

 

[ply67cuda]

Ok, so they arent making full boost. still 3-4 psi isn't anything to sneeze at at idle vs about zero with a Centri unit

Great discussion about tuning. The factory tuning in my Roushcharger was horrific. The boost bypass shut at 80% throttle and slapped motor with 6 PSI of boost. That was on a 6500 lbs truck. Almost always made it slide sideways. Very uncontrollable

I had a custom tune done up that started boosting at 20%, but it was modulated. Bypass started shutting/throttling. Bypass would fully shut at 50% throttle. Much better street manners after that

With the 3.92 gears in these things, a Centri probably is pretty fun. To be brutally honest the 375 HP the R/T has is enough. It makes 1st and 2nd useless from a hard launch. Hopefully good wide tires help cure that. Centri would let you roll into the boost and hopefully higher trap speeds to offset slower launch

I think the boost level at idle topic is design dependent. For example some designs use a bypass valve which allows the airflow to bypass the rotors during idle or light-load situations. So there is a driving regimen where there is in effect no boost at any PSI going on other than what is there due to ambient air pressure.

Usually bypass valves are vacuum actuated. The vacuum holds the valve closed in the "default" state. When the throttle moves (either mechanically or thru a TPS-enabled solenoid) the vacuum levels change (reduce). At some point along the changing vacuum profile the bypass valve design (might be done by a mechanical spring or TPS-controlled) senses the change conditions and closes the bypass valve thus engaging the boost. So while its there "on call boost" available, in many cases a PD set-up isn't actually boosting at idle or light load.

For those reading the thread who are not too familiar with S/Cs and bypass valves, you can do a web search or here are a few of links which help explain basics. Hope this helps!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger.htm

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/FAQ_pg/layouts/faq-answers10.htm

http://www.3800supercharger.net/how.html

 

[dodge boy]

The thing that i like about the Maggie is the boost comes on a fairly fast and stays consistent though the power band where with the centris builds up it slower but has a benefit at higher rpms.

 

[sparkplug33]

Why did srt engineers choose a twin screw supercharger for the hellcat? Just curious on everyone's opinion .