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my05hammer - only thing that creeps me out about Loctite is my horrible experience with the 5.2-5.9 Magnum motors long intake bolts snapping. I broke 8 during my last topend rebuild on a 5.2, and 5 of them broke clean at the cylinder head. Those were bolts without Loctite with 70k on the motor. Very similar bolt.

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone had luck with Loctite and actually attempted removal afterward?
 

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Discussion Starter #82
my05hammer - only thing that creeps me out about Loctite is my horrible experience with the 5.2-5.9 Magnum motors long intake bolts snapping. I broke 8 during my last topend rebuild on a 5.2, and 5 of them broke clean at the cylinder head. Those were bolts without Loctite with 70k on the motor. Very similar bolt.

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone had luck with Loctite and actually attempted removal afterward?
I'm not going to put Locktite on mine I'll just check it occasionally and re-torque, if needed.

My reasoning is even the Blue Loctite may be able to hold secure to 108inlbs, basically fooling the torque wrench.

Making the bolt seem properly tight because of the Locktite, but the intake and gaskets still be loose from the expansion and contraction.

If it was metal to metal and a higher torque value than 108inlbs, I would use the Locktite, but not for this, I don't mind occasionally checking it and re-torquing if needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #83
However, I am not set in stone regarding this.
What do the rest of you think regarding the use of Locktite for this situation?
 

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Most of my experience with Loctite has been with my Harley's, On them I follow the manuals recommendations. The proper strength, or color if you will, and I don't get carried away with it. Also on the bolts that I re-use I clean off the old Loctite and run a bolt in and out of the hole a few times and sometimes even chase with a lose fitting tap and blow out with an air hose, as it will effect the torque values.

Doing this I have never snapped a bolt because of the Locktite. That said, I never re-use bolts that are to be replaced each time. Bolts are dirt cheap compared to a redo or worse on a job. Also a manual is in my opinion, an absolute must for shade tree mechanics, it will tell you how to do it right. Just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #85 (Edited)
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These 2 pages are JPEG pictures of the actual manual covering the 5.7L Intake manifold, which is covering the tightening sequence, and the only thing missing is the 108inlbs torque value.

I looked these up since we were discussing whether or not to use any type of thread locking which Mopar A Lock and Seal is recommended, but IMO, it is unclear as to whether to use it or not?

Note: If reinstalling the original manifold, apply Mopar A Lock and Seal Adhesive to the intake manifold bolts. Not required when installing a new manifold.
Does this mean that when the factory installed the intake manifold they did not use the thread lock adhesive, because it says, Not required when installing a new manifold.

At the factory the intake manifold would have been new with brand new uncompressed seals.

We are not removing or replacing the manifold, we are just retightening the bolts back to the spec'd torque value so should it actually require any thread locker, and are we risking cracking the plastic intake?

The only ways to apply any thread locker is #1, to pull the bolts out one at a time, leaving the others torqued, apply the thread locker and reinstall and torque the bolts, since this is a plastic intake manifold, is this not the best case of to, leave well enough alone, and not risk cracking the plastic by completely removing bolts and replacing them?

Removing one bolt while the others are fully torqued down seems the best possibility of actually cracking the plastic manifold?

Or option #2, is to loosen all the bolts, remove one at a time and apply thread locker, and then re-sequence tightening them all back down to the torque value, that is what I do not want to do. Because it was already a butt puckering experience getting these bolts torqued back to the 108inlbs the first time, for me, since I am there torque wise, I am not too keen doing it all over again. When all it may take now is a quarter turn if any to get back to 108inlbs.

IMO, simply keeping an eye on the torque value of the intake manifold bolts and occasionally re-tightening the bolts if necessary, is probably the safest thing to do, keeping in mind that aging plastic is more prone to crack, and removing one bolt at a time will create stress pressure on the plastic.

As Noted Above:
There is NO approved repair procedure for the intake manifold. If severe damage is found during the inspection, the intake manifold must be replaced.
Maybe an actual Mopar mechanic would have better insight on this thread locking subject, with simply re-torquing back to specs, but personally I wish the 5.7s intake manifold was aluminum instead of plastic, but it isn't. Ry
 

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I would think that unless you completely remove the intake you do not need to use the thread locker, then if a new one is installed it is not necessary either because you get crush fit of new materials.

When I put a new barrel or reset the head space on a rifle or pistol that threads into the receiver I machine .002 to.003 thousands of an inch less from the measure for crush on the steel shoulder when it is tightened. All materials crush some when you initially torque them.

As for the bolt torque, if you know the grade of bolt and the size you can look up the recommended torque value of any bolt in a machinists hand book.

I looked it up and pulled a bolt on my intake and re-torqued all my bolts in sequence Ry shows to 108 in lb. This is what I found ; the bolt is a 6mm x 1.00 x 8mm head, thread pitch which according to my machinists hand book says it is a 9.8 grade and torques at 11.22 ft lb, 15.211 nm, or 134.63 in lb. Remember we are torquing on a plastic manifold and the values given are nominal torque for hard surfaces so 108 in lb sounds about right to me. plastic has a lot of crush.

As to the bolt and the thread locker my bolt most definitely has a thread locker patch on it. I would find out from a Mopar shop what strength it is or get the type Ry mentioned Mopar lock and seal adhesive.
 

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Discussion Starter #89 (Edited)
I wonder if you don't use thread locker on a new manifold because it comes with new bolts with a patch on them. Just a guess.
Some bolts ordered from Mopar come with a dried thread locker already on them, some do not.
When I swapped out my differential, the 8 drive shaft to differential bolts came like that, the rest of the differential bolts did not have anything pre-applied to them.

By the way my driveshaft bolts that had the thread locker applied did not have the thread locker all the way to the bottom of the threads, the patch stopped almost a half inch from the bottom of the threads which meant only about a quarter inch of the bolt actually had the thread locker make thread contact.

I don't know if that was accidental or purposeful, but the old bolts I removed which were factory installed, were exactly the same way?
 

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Discussion Starter #90 (Edited)
Can anyone confirm whether or not the 108 in lbs spec is correct for an 09' 5.7 ?
Thanks.
I've found mixed information going back to the 08 5.7L HEMI Intake Manifold which seems to be from 08 to 10 at 105inlbs, but some of the conflicting information listed 9ftlbs, which is 108inlbs, there's not that much difference from 105inlbs to 108inlbs. However I would stay on the safe side, and just go to 105inlbs unless you find a solid # from someone with a 2009 Shop Service Manual, and if you do please post it.

https://itstillruns.com/torque-specifications-oil-pan-bolts-7435035.html

I would say with confidence that as long as the intake itself is the cast black composite plastic bolting onto the aluminum heads, 105inlbs will be just fine. Ry
 

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I've found mixed information going back to the 08 5.7L HEMI Intake Manifold which seems to be from 08 to 10 at 105inlbs, but some of the conflicting information listed 9ftlbs, which is 108inlbs, there's not that much difference from 105inlbs to 108inlbs. However I would stay on the safe side, and just go to 105inlbs unless you find a solid # from someone with a 2009 Shop Service Manual, and if you do please post it.

https://itstillruns.com/torque-specifications-oil-pan-bolts-7435035.html

I would say with confidence that as long as the intake itself is the cast plastic going on aluminum heads, 105inlbs will be just fine. Ry
I did some research of older posts on here dealing with the same issue and checked the information on my Challenger Tips and Tricks disc and 105 seems to be the spec mentioned for older Challenger intake bolts. Like you said, not much difference between the two so I'll go with 105 inlbs.
Need to get a hold of an inlbs torque wrench as I wasn't comfortable doing it with a ftlb one. Once I check them, I'll report back here.
Appreciate the response.
 

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Discussion Starter #92 (Edited)
I did some research of older posts on here dealing with the same issue and checked the information on my Challenger Tips and Tricks disc and 105 seems to be the spec mentioned for older Challenger intake bolts. Like you said, not much difference between the two so I'll go with 105 inlbs.
Need to get a hold of an inlbs torque wrench as I wasn't comfortable doing it with a ftlb one. Once I check them, I'll report back here.
Appreciate the response.
Harbor Freight has an excellent inch lbs torque wrench the click type by Pittsburgh, for about 20 bucks if you have one near you.

The bolt head is 8mm and you'll need a 1/4" x 6" extension and if you have a shock tower brace installed you'll need a 1/4" x 3" extension, so you can do it without removing the brace.
 

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I would just add this to my re-torque. My bolts were all at about 45 in lb when I started, so I put a witness mark on a few of them after I torqued them as I wonder if the bolts are staying put and what your seeing in the lessening of the torque has to do with the plastic crushing from heat expansion and then cooling and not the bolts turning out.

If that is the case , if we keep torqueing them we run the risk of cracking the plastic eventually. It will crush for a while but at some point you have reached the limits of it's compression.

I'll let you know if I can find the crush parameters of plastic and if the bolts move after a while.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
I would just add this to my re-torque. My bolts were all at about 45 in lb when I started, so I put a witness mark on a few of them after I torqued them as I wonder if the bolts are staying put and what your seeing in the lessening of the torque has to do with the plastic crushing from heat expansion and then cooling and not the bolts turning out.

If that is the case , if we keep torqueing them we run the risk of cracking the plastic eventually. It will crush for a while but at some point you have reached the limits of it's compression.

I'll let you know if I can find the crush parameters of plastic and if the bolts move after a while.
Excellent point, I was wondering if somehow they were backing out as well, let us know what you discover Please.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
2015 with 53,000+ miles
 

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For those having a problem keeping them torqued, replace the bolts with grade 5 of the type shown below and safety wire them.

x2pcs-1-2-13-x-1-SS-Hex-Drilled-Head-Bolt-Safety-Stainless
 

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Discussion Starter #100 (Edited)
For those having a problem keeping them torqued, replace the bolts with grade 5 of the type shown below and safety wire them.

x2pcs-1-2-13-x-1-SS-Hex-Drilled-Head-Bolt-Safety-Stainless
Your suggestion is a very good one if vibration is the reason this is happening but there's almost zero vibration in this situation. I honestly don't think the bolts are backing out, it could simply be the heat and cold, expansion and contraction. Which could be having an effect on the plastic intake manifold, and the sealing gaskets between the intake manifold and the heads. That's why what Johnnyreb is doing marking the bolts with a witness mark is important.

I would just add this to my re-torque. My bolts were all at about 45 in lb when I started, so I put a witness mark on a few of them after I torqued them as I wonder if the bolts are staying put and what your seeing in the lessening of the torque has to do with the plastic crushing from heat expansion and then cooling and not the bolts turning out.

If that is the case , if we keep torqueing them we run the risk of cracking the plastic eventually. It will crush for a while but at some point you have reached the limits of it's compression.

I'll let you know if I can find the crush parameters of plastic and if the bolts move after a while.
IMO, a plastic intake manifold was just another cheap solution Dodge chose to use on the 5.7L HEMI Challenger, they chose it because it was cheap to manufacture.

Just like the drug companies do when they market a new drug then many years down the road find out the side effects are hurting people and pull the drug from the market.

Meaning Dodge had no idea in the early installation days of plastic intake manifolds what effect heat and cold expansion was going to do to the plastic. If the 5.7L intake had been made of Aluminum this probably would not even be happening, but it is happening and been discovered not just on the Challenger, but all the 5.7L HEMIs being implanted in vehicles. Challengers, Chargers, Chryslers, Jeeps, Ram Trucks, you name it.

If the bolts themselves are not actually backing out but over time are still loosing torque value from the effect of expansion and contraction then Johnnyreb may be 100% correct and continuing torquing could eventually just crush the plastic bolt contact points.

Maybe changing checking the torque values to a yearly basis, possibly?

I'm thinking doing witness marks on mine as well, I believe that is a very good idea, at least then we can actually see if the bolts are backing out?
 
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