[Danno66]

Am I Thinking about this correctly?

The 1970 440 ci V8 is rated at 390 hp, rated gross, or at the flywheel.

Since 1972 hp ratings were rated as "net" or at the rear wheels. The difference is between 20% and 30% (let's split the difference and say 25%).

This means that the 1970 Challenger with the 390 hp V8 would be rated at 292 hp by modern measurement standards. So in reality, the 305 "net" hp V6 in my SXT actually is more powerful than the 1970 440?

Amazing...

 

[dodge boy]

The 1970 440 V8 4 barrel was rated at 375 HPand the 6 Pack was rated at 390 both at the flywheel. I don't remember any of those old cars being rated at the wheels. The new V6 is also rated at the flywheel.

 

[dodge man2]

The new ones are rated net and the old ones were gross, so yeah, your thinking is correct. I think a 440 Challenger would be quicker though, mainly because of lighter weight and more torque.

 

[TikiMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1blkBrkXXi8

 

[Bubba J]

Both are rated at the crank, the main differences between net and gross were, gross was without any accessories (power steering, a/c, water pump even at times) and with optimized timing, and strait pipe exhaust. Net is with all accessories, standard timing and full exhaust. so a direct conversion from gross to net is virtually impossible. Back in the day, some were over inflated for bragging rites, but due to safety concerns, and racing rules of the time many were under rated as well, so the numbers are really useless. much like today many claim the 5.7 and 6.4 are under rated, and we all know in early 90's Ford had to admit the 5.0 was over rated and had to re rate them. only way to know is line em up. My money is on the 440. BUT, it would be fun to find out.

 

[dodge boy]

2X ^^^^^ my money is on the 440.

 

[Scooter]

One word.......torque!

 

[Implumcrazy]

One word.......torque!

:iagree: Time Slips don't lie. Major differences from then to now are: Tires, Transmission and fuel grade.

For example:

http://www.enginefactory.com/chevelle.htm

1970 Chevelle with LS6

"LS6 454 V8 [email protected], [email protected]
Performance: LS6 454/450: 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec @ 103mph."

With today's tires and 6 speed trans; It would run low to mid 12's.

 

[skibuff]

440's were very mildly tuned engines back in the day. In 1971 Dodge/Plymouth rated their engines with both gross and net horsepower. The 440 magnum (4 bbl) was rated at 305 net (375 gross). The 440 six pack (3x2 bbl) was rated at 330 horsepower net (385 gross).

I own both a '69 Charger R/T with a 440 magnum and a '69 and 1/2 Roadrunner with the 440+6. I guarantee you a stock Challenger SXT will not only lose in the 1320 to either of those cars, it will lose badly. For comparison sake, in one of my rare abuses of the Roadrunner at the drag strip it has come within 0.12 seconds of my Challenger SRT-8 in the 1320.

 

[Danno66]

Great information. Has anyone run a '15 SXT on the quarter mile? It is plenty fast enough for me,,,I am very proud of the performance that this V6 puts out. Just curious on numbers...

 

[wyo.hemi]

One word.......torque!

No replacement for displacement.

Here are a couple good articles about old school engines...

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/50205/motor-trend-classic/actual-horsepower-of-60s-70s-hp-engines/index.html

http://driving.ca/bmw/m5/auto-news/news/five-of-the-most-underrated-engines-and-their-true-power

 

[cdahl383]

440 would definitely win unless it wasn't running right. Most of the old 1/4 mile times were factory stock engines with crappy bias ply tires. Toss a set of slicks or drag radials on the back, recurve the distributor for more base timing and less mechanical timing and a little more total timing, adjust the carb, and boom a lot of those 13 second cars will become 12 second monsters.

I think pre 1972 engine hp was rated gross, meaning flywheel with no accessories dragging it down. After that they went to a net rating which included all the accessories (i.e. alternator, power steering pump, water pump, etc). Even today cars aren't rated at the wheels. Hp ratings at the wheel are typically what you hear about when people put their cars on a dyno.

The new SXT's are definitely fast. 305hp is no joke. My wife's 300 has the 3.6L and it gets up and moves!

 

[Scat Pack]

I located these 1970 Challenger performance times along with sources. Keep in mind other performance tests would have returned times different from below but should be somewhere in the same ballpark.

0 to 60 mph........Quarter Mile....................Engine....................Source
n/a..................... 14.6 sec @ 97.0 mph........ 340ci/275hp............ HC
n/a..................... 13.9 sec @ 104.6 mph...... 426ci/425hp............ Musclecars 5/95
n/a..................... 14.3 sec @ 99.9 mph........ 440ci/390hp............ PopularHot Rod
n/a..................... 13.6 sec @ 104.3 mph...... 440ci/390hp............ Car Craft
5.8 sec............... 14.3 sec @ 99.0 mph........ 340ci/290hp............. MCR
6.0 sec............... 13.6 sec @ 104.0 mph...... 440ci/390hp............. Car Craft 11/69
6.3 sec............... 13.1 sec @ 107.1 mph...... 426ci/425hp............. Car Craft 11/69
7.1 sec............... 14.6 sec @ 97.8 mph........ 440ci/390hp............. Car Life

 

[Danno66]

the SXT really compares well in the 0 to 60 times to the 426 and 440. I wonder about quarter mile times...

 

[dodge boy]

The SXT in stock form will run low 15's to high 14's at the track which is very good for a 6 cylinder but the Hemi and 440 are far better than that easily running 13's.

 

[Danno66]

That's what I wanted to know. Actually very respectable for any V6 and 30 mpg...a V6 that really is competitive with the old small block V8s, all except for the really big muscle.

As a daily driver in Sothern California, I have all the speed I can handle. I only pine for a little, just a little V8 rumble. Oh well.

Great information came out of this conversation...I love it! Thanks!!!

 

[mrhemihead]

^^^Agree with all^^^
PLUS the accessories back then did not always consist of AC and never a 200amp alternator, to power the mega gadgets, and whatever else the crank shaft drives on the new cars.

In the 80s I owned a 440 6pack Challenger, some called it a stump puller. It could out run a 426 Hemi Challenger in the 1/4, if you could get it to hook up off the line.

As you mentioned the BIG benefit with today's engines is the gas mileage. Lucky to get 10 mpg on a 70s Hemi, the 440 was better at around 14...much less with a heavy foot.

 

[dodge man2]

I've watched a lot of stock cars run at the Mopar Nats, including some of which I knew the owners. A near stock 440 4 bbl would not run 13's that I ever saw. Warmed over a little bit, yes. The big problem is the Mopar Nats is in August and the DA's were most likely always bad.

I owned a 70 Road Runner, 440+6, 4.10 gears, 4 speed. It felt like a 13 second car but I never did run it down the drag strip. As others have said, traction was an issue, I really couldn't go full throttle until part way into second gear.

 

[dodge boy]

I've watched a lot of stock cars run at the Mopar Nats, including some of which I knew the owners. A near stock 440 4 bbl would not run 13's that I ever saw. Warmed over a little bit, yes. The big problem is the Mopar Nats is in August and the DA's were most likely always bad.

I owned a 70 Road Runner, 440+6, 4.10 gears, 4 speed. It felt like a 13 second car but I never did run it down the drag strip. As others have said, traction was an issue, I really couldn't go full throttle until part way into second gear.

I've seen plenty of stock 440's run at E Town way back when, there wasn't any question that the six pack was a real monster in stock form and in many instances running very low 13's and often winning the pure stock eliminator, I don't completely agree with you on the four barrels though, it did seem that some of them including my Superbird which weighed 3900 lbs were in the low to mid 14 range but there were a number of them running high 13's, I had a friend with a Stock factory ram air 70 GTX 440 four barrel and 3.55 gearing that regularly ran in the 13.50 - 13.70 range.

 

[cdahl383]

Back then getting into the 12's was a big deal. Nowadays these new cars do it with ease. Amazing how much the technology has advanced over the years.