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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The most debated argument has for a long time been long tubes over short tubes, and it always seemed that when it came to short tubes they were classed by most as a waste of money. However when you take into consideration that the 392 Scat Pack and the Hellcat come with specially made shorty headers, why didn't they go ahead and put long tubes on those car engines. (That's not a question as the EPA had everything to do with it.) The power those engines output and run shorty headers, they just don't call them shorty headers, they call them exhaust manifolds, but that is exactly what they are. The Scat Pack Stage 3 kit for the 5.7 came with High Flow Heads, High Flow Cats, and the 392s Exhaust Manifold, Hmm, don't you find that interesting, My Dear Watson?

Mopar Pro Shop - Mopar Performance Parts (MoPowered) - MOPAR SCAT PACK STAGE 3 PERFORMANCE KIT

Now here is what I find very interesting that companies that have been long term invested in producing nothing but long tube headers for the 5.7, are now entering the shorty header field.

Hooker and Kooks now have shorty headers available for the 5.7.

Hooker Blackheart Shorty Headers: 300 / Challenger / Charger 5.7L Hemi 2009 - 2021

1-7/8" Super Street Series headers 2005-2020 Chrysler LX/LD 5.7L HEMI Cars. | Kooks Headers & Exhaust

So now, those interested in possibly running shorty headers have a lot more choices than was previously available. Granted some of the prices are ridiculous because if you look at all the offerings out there and put them side by side they all look pretty much the same. Simply because there is only so much room in the Challenger with the 5.7L engine installed to get too creative with shorty header design, so the various brands all pretty much look identical. They probably all perform close to the same as well, some may have different tube diameters, and collector assemblies, but the tubing bends are all very close to the same.

This is not to start a long tube short tube argument, if you are already running long tubes then you've already had the car tuned to run them and should be 100% totally satisfied! This is so some on the fence today trying to decide what to do, have more options available today than when I installed mine, and just the fact they are being made by highly reputable companies should tell you something. Plus the fact that Dodge has used the shorty exhaust manifolds on its most powerful out the door engine models, including the Hellcat Redeye and the Demon. Ry

Edit: Shorty Headers by Brand available today, if I missed any please let me know.
Flowmaster, BBK, AFE, Hooker, JBA, Kooks, and Hedman.
 

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And the Helliphant
 

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The short headers are designed to work with factory downpipes and if they are not already, the manufacturers will be working to get C.A.R.B. certified. Long tube headers will never be as you have to change the location of your converters. If I ever have to pass emissions that will be my first step, shorties and oem mid pipes but they will definitely choke our my cam and supercharger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
If I ever have to pass emissions that will be my first step, shorties and oem mid pipes but they will definitely choke our my cam and supercharger.
You do realize the Hellcat, the Hellcat Redeye, and the Demon, all run Superchargers with 100% stock short headers and OEM midpipes, and there is no choking out happening, so that is an unwarranted assumption. There are even upgraded Hellcats running over 1,000hp still running the stock exhaust manifolds. That seems to be one thing for sure that Dodge got right, IMO.
 

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You do realize the Hellcat, the Hellcat Redeye, and the Demon, all run Superchargers with 100% stock short headers and OEM midpipes, and there is no choking out happening, so that is an unwarranted assumption. There are even upgraded Hellcats running over 1,000hp still running the stock exhaust manifolds. That seems to be one thing for sure that Dodge got right, IMO.
Does the Drag Pack run shorties? Are the Shorts better than log manifolds. sure. I bought JBA shorties and returned them before they were installed after talking to a the Builder/Tuner I was going to have them install them.
 

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A pressure gauge plugged into the hole where the pre-catalyst sensor goes should be no higher than 1.5 PSI at idle. Even at 5K RPM you should never see anything near 5 PSI because that would indicate a clogged converter or a crushed pipe. With a reading higher than 5 PSI, the engine will barely rev over 3K RPM. This is the way to test for a plugged converter. This is Just to illustrate how little positive pressure is in an exhaust system. Using the pounds per square inch measurement is never used when designing headers. The inches of water scale is used because it is more accurate.
Look at this scale;
1 psi to inch water = 27.6799 inch water

2 psi to inch water = 55.35981 inch water

3 psi to inch water = 83.03971 inch water

4 psi to inch water = 110.71962 inch water

5 psi to inch water = 138.39952 inch water

6 psi to inch water = 166.07943 inch water

7 psi to inch water = 193.75933 inch water

8 psi to inch water = 221.43924 inch water

9 psi to inch water = 249.11914 inch water

10 psi to inch water = 276.79905 inch water
This allows the designer to optimize pipe length, bends, comparison flow, etc. For instance, there is more restriction in a 90º radius bent pipe than there is in a 4 foot section of straight pipe.
-John
 

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Man I think I must be in the wrong crowd. I farted on the toilet and blew my neighbors toilet off the floor a block away. I was eight. Try to keep up boys.

Just to get in the long tube short tube chat, I went long tube because I'm an old fart and that's what we ran back in the day. Also I was looking for a wider power band.

Kind of like the guys who ran 4:11 rear ends and topped out at 90 MPH but did the quarter mile in 10 sec. I always liked a little more balance in the performance cycle. I always felt long tubes provided that and short tubes were more for bottom end power.

I don't \remember where I came up with that theory, but I believe I have heard it repeated on here as well.
 

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Considering John's last point "there is more restriction in a 90º radius bent pipe than there is in a 4 foot section of straight pipe. " If these equal length runners have a different number of bends...are they really equal?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Considering John's last point "there is more restriction in a 90º radius bent pipe than there is in a 4 foot section of straight pipe. " If these equal length runners have a different number of bends...are they really equal?
You're referring to the actual exhaust flow being unequal, even though the tubes are the same length, as the bends cost flow performance?
 

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You're referring to the actual exhaust flow being unequal, even though the tubes are the same length, as the bends cost flow performance?
Bingo. Equal length is just a way to short cut the science. Clearly, the unequal length shorties support the firing order just fine. There may be driving conditions where long tubes are beneficial, like WOT, or maybe low end, but there is more to it than that.
 

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Shorties are all about emissions, the closer the cat to the exhaust port the more quickly it will rise to operating temperature.
That's it, that's the reason.

The Demon, Redeye, Hellcat all pass emissions and accept the restrictions the exhaust required to pass emissions as part of the deal.

Absolute power would have long tubes.
 

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Shorties are all about emissions, the closer the cat to the exhaust port the more quickly it will rise to operating temperature.
That's it, that's the reason.

The Demon, Redeye, Hellcat all pass emissions and accept the restrictions the exhaust required to pass emissions as part of the deal.

Absolute power would have long tubes.
Yeah, that's right as far as emissions may go, but there is a HP trade off between short and long. Shorties help in the low to mid range RPM like for daily drivers and towing; higher torque value and quicker take off. Long tubes help in the mid to high RPM range, and freer exhaust flow; more suited for track.
I think that Dodge got it right putting Short headers on our Challengers because they are set up to be mostly street driven and emissions certifiable. Tuning and track use are benefitted by having long tubes.
 

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Actually, it looks pretty interesting. I have the 3.7L in my '08 Ram 1500. I wonder if this wouldn't be anything that would work for me? I've been considering having a dual exhaust installed. I believe it's not feasible for the 3.7L but it looks like it could be modded to fit.
I love my truck regardless.
 

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That's like the tuba tube on the LH side of Jeep Wrangler
 
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